NPRM: Proposed New Listings for Mental Impairments

Olan Barnes · Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 1648 Location: Michigan

A friend sent this to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72cHfOKoA1c

YellowDog · Joined: 28 Nov 2006 Posts: 60

Translation: We are too big to fail. If you don't throw tons of money at us RIGHT NOW we will blow our brains out in your office. It'll make a hell of a mess on the carpet. The cleaning staff will blame you.

deltajudge · Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 434

It will get no better if the government gets involved. They need to get out of Michigan. 8)

Olan Barnes · Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 1648 Location: Michigan

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/nov/28/na-dont-kill-the-corporate-goat/news-opinion-commentary/

This fable could apply to corporate CEOs or preconceived under worked or overpaid auto workers on a "jobs bank".

It appears you can bail out banks with no real hope of a return (toxic dept) on investment but not loan American industry help when they need it.

I am not sure how spelled out all this is in the constitution but where was the authority for the Louisiana Purchase during Thomas Jefferson's term and supervised by James Madison.

The past:

"Postscript

"After Hamilton left office in 1795, the new Secretary of the Treasury Oliver Wolcott, Jr. informed Congress that due to the existing state of government finances more money was needed. This could be achieved either by selling the government's shares of stock in the Bank, or raising taxes. Wolcott advised the first choice. Congress quickly agreed. Hamilton objected, believing that the dividends on that stock had been inviolably pledged for the support of the sinking fund to retire the debt.[7] Hamilton tried to organize opposition to the measure, but was unsuccessful."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bank_of_the_United_States "

Oldguy · Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 35

I am incredibly sympathetic to the workers, retirees, suppliers. stores selling to these suppliers and workers relatives of workers & suppliers, etc. I think they are too big to fail without catastrophic consequences to the economy. Even a Chapter 11 restructuring probably wouldn't work because customers might not buy cars believing they wouyldn't be around to honor warranty claims. Retirees health benefits would be toast. Suppliers would probably be cut off at the knees& end up shedding jobs or closing.
But I don't see that a bailout is any help. The real problem is that people aren't buying anything. Changing to electric isn't going to help if people don't buy.
When Chrysler was in trouble before the problem was that American auto makers were making junk that people didn't want and Japan, etc were producing better/cheaper
US car makers learned to produce small & cheap and also SUVs that people wanted to buy.
They do have health care costs that foreign manufacturers don't have, etc but more money won't buy them more customers
I sure don't have an answer-give people $10,000 tax credits to buy a new car, maybe but that would be as politically feasible as George Bush as the new head of the Democratic party

Insider (Ret) · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject:

At this point, after all the publicity, I don't see that potential buyers are going to be any more scared by "bankruptcy" than they are by "bailout." The risk that the US company you may consider buying from won't be around to honor your warranty is about the same in both cases, and people are bright enough to know that.

I think a pre-arranged/approved/negotiated bankruptcy is the best alternative; it gives the manufacturers the most leverage with all the groups who are going to have to share the pain of restructuring: workers, retirees, shareholders, creditors, suppliers and dealers. But then, what the heck do I know? We just bought a new car....and it wasn't US made. (OK, for the curious, we got a Smart car...after waiting 11 years from when we first saw it in Paris on our honeymoon. http://www.smartusa.com/)

Olan Barnes · Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 1648 Location: Michigan

I have a 2008 Saturn Aura which replaced a 2000 Chevrolet Malibu and my second vehicle is a seldom used 2002 Chev S-10.

Yes I live in Michigan with my home town which is in Flint and yes I now live in Ann Arbor which is not quite as hard hit being a university town. I will also grant you Michigan should have used diversification of industry many years ago.

Larry that little toy can not be your only car - no Lexis? :P

All kidding aside I fear for a deep recession that could turn into a depression with a domino effect fueled by the suppliers and a hard hit by the retirees.

The competition has been unfair for years by protective near embargoes of our products overseas and unfair trade.

The fact was that it is not just the health car cost born by the imports UAW folks have told me over the years that if the health care was borne by a single payer system they would bargain for higher wages for a new benefit package. The UAW picks a initial target for striking and keeps the competitors open and then picks off the rest so there is enough blame to go around but there is more to this than the union.

I suppose there has to be corporate and union change the USA can believe in?

:oops:

deltajudge · Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 434

We all know what is killing the big three. Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes, Kia, et.al., are building huge facilities down south in non-union states. They cannot compete because of the burden imposed by pensions and health care plans through bargaining years ago when everything was fat and happy. They are trying. I bought a 2008 Chevy Malibu back in April, and it was voted car of the year, it is one of the best cars I have ever owned, well engineered. We also own a 2006 Chevy Trail Blazer, and well pleased with it. The Malibu gets excellent gas mileage, averaging 25 mpg. Trail Blazer, not that good, but makes up for it in practicallity. I have never owned a vehicle with a foreign name on it. A bail out is not the solution. If worst comes to worst, Chapter 11. They are going to have to restructure, and deal with UAW and their pensioners. 8)

Insider (Ret) · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject:

No, Olan, it's not the only car. Not by a long shot. We're still puzzling over which of the other two should go. Next week, we're off to see a nephew in a high school play up in NY, and are going to ask him (and his parents) if he'd like one for his last year in HS and then to take off to college.

I really can't opine sensibly on the "big 3" issue. I'm very much mixed on the matter; a simple bailout is a waste of money, it seems to me. Total failure of the auto industry is equally unacceptable. Someone a lot smarter than I has the answer, and I suspect that his initials may be BHO. Or so I hope, anyhow.

Olan Barnes · Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 1648 Location: Michigan

A friend of mine reminded me about sub pay which is probably is no longer in effect. Things sure do change in a relatively few years.

http://www.uaw.org/barg/03/barg03.cfm

Olan Barnes · Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 1648 Location: Michigan

This is what I got in my In Basket today - of course I just paid $154.9 for gas and the government may now mandate what gets built::

This week the House and Senate are expected to take up legislation to make emergency bridge loans available to the domestic auto companies. The UAW believes it is critically important that Congress pass this legislation to ensure that the domestic automakers can continue operations.

Without this emergency assistance, GM and Chrysler could run out of cash and be forced to cease operations in the very near future. This would trigger the collapse of suppliers, which in turn would bring down Ford.

The liquidation of GM, Ford and Chrysler would have catastrophic consequences for UAW active and retired members and for the entire nation. Three million workers would lose their jobs and a million retirees would face losses in their pension and health care benefits. Thousands of other businesses, including dealers and suppliers, would go out of business. Revenues to federal, state and local governments would drop sharply, forcing cuts in social services. And the entire nation would be dragged into a longer, deeper recession.

By providing the domestic auto companies with emergency bridge loans, Congress can avoid these dire consequences. It can also ensure that the companies are on a path to restructure their operations so they can build advanced, more fuel-efficient vehicles and be viable in the future.

The legislation that will be taken up by Congress includes strict accountability provisions, including limits on executive compensation, an equity stake to protect taxpayers, and ongoing oversight by Congress. It also requires the companies to bring all stakeholders together to make the changes that will be necessary to restructure the companies’ operations and ensure their viability.

The UAW and our allies are mounting an all-out campaign to urge Congress to act this week to pass this legislation providing emergency bridge loans to the domestic auto companies. To get this legislation passed, we need to generate grass-roots pressure on Representatives and Senators right away.

Please call your Representative and Senators today by dialing the following toll-free number: (877) 331-1223 or send an e-mail. Urge them to stand up for Main Street America by voting for the legislation to provide emergency bridge loans to the domestic auto companies. Tell them this is essential to enable the companies to continue operations and to avoid devastating consequences for millions of workers and retirees and for the entire nation.

deltajudge · Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 434

I've already put my post here, and it is clear. The big 3 are burdened by their past contracts with the unions, i.e., pensions, health benefits, etc. and that factors into every car they build. There is no way the government can over come this, because we know the democrats are not going against the unions, and we all also know if they get involved in car manufacturing, they will place all kinds of enviromental restrictions on the building of cars, so as to place them out of reach of your everyday car buyer. So we will be like Cuba, everyone will be driving all those gas guzzling, smog making pieces of shit so everybody will be happy. 8)

Olan Barnes · Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 1648 Location: Michigan

If the big three is forced to build a car no one will buy - even more then they do now folks will still buy cars - just not the big three cars.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122875608562688401.html

BTW a minister put on a Sunday service in Detroit with three SUVs on the alter and a Detroit radio station said the reverend drove a Bentley.

deltajudge · Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 434

Exactly right, Olan. They'll be building those cars down south without all the union shit. It's so clear what the big 3 needs to do, and why they in the mess they are. They stay in Michigan, never gone get well. Let's just see if common sense prevails. 8)

Olan Barnes · Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 1648 Location: Michigan

"Senate rejects aid for auto industry
David Shepardson and Gordon Trowbridge / Detroit News Washington Bureau

WASHINGTON -- Last-minute talks to save General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC from collapse fell apart late Thursday after Senate Republicans rejected a compromise $14 billion auto bailout deal.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., called it "a loss for the country."

"I dread looking at Wall Street tomorrow," Reid said after the talks collapsed. "It's not going to be a pleasant sight. This is going to be a very bad Christmas for many people."

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With GM and Chrysler each in danger of collapse within weeks, their only chance of survival may be the Bush administration, which could tap the remains of the $700 billion Wall Street bailout package, something the White House has rejected. "I would hope they would consider that as early as tomorrow," Reid said. "

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081211/AUTO01/812110451

And:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081212/OPINION03/812120397

Insider (Ret) · Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:08 pm Post subject:

Rather interesting that there's so much mis-information around, especially regarding the UAW contract and impact it has on GM, et. al. I still think that bankruptcy is the way to go, and I don't buy the silly notion that if/when one of the 3 has to file, the public will somehow be increasingly leery of buying that company's cars. Notice that no one is selling any cars these days, big 3 or foreign-owned.

Olan Barnes · Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 1648 Location: Michigan

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/12/05/283364.html

David Traver · Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 03:03 pm Post subject:

Ya, that sounds like a great idea. Put 2,000,000 people out of work in the middle of the longest recession since the great depression. The Vice President last week told the Republican caucus that if they killed the big three the Republican Party would forever be know as the Herbert Hoover party. I have to agree with the VP.

I wonder what kind of political party will replace the Republican Party? Are there enough rich people left to form an anti-worker party? Probably not.

Insider (Ret) · Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 05:39 pm Post subject:

Well, I could be wrong (I was once, maybe even more than once), but I don't see a huge difference between an auto company that's "desperate for a bailout" and one that has filed under Chapter 11. And I suspect that the 52 percent in the CNBC poll that Olan references who would not buy a car from a company under Chapter 11 are people who aren't going to buy ANY new car any time soon.

But it'll probably be mooted out temporarily by Bush dipping into the 700 billion. He'll give GM and Chrysler just enough to get them through his watch, leaving President Elect Obama to deal with the mess when he assumes office.

Olan Barnes · Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 1648 Location: Michigan

Larry you are right however the more I think about it I do not see it as a party affiliation deal but much more. I see it as an us against them but the us and them is obscure. It is a North against South and a foreign manufacture name plate against a big three name plate as well as a touch of anti big union and perhaps a bit of blue collar and other crap mixed in. Also Chapter 11 might cause havoc with peoples pensions that they may have depended on for 20 years - perhaps people in their 70s - perhaps a bit of ageism too. It almost seems like a sociology experiment by some mad professor.

You may even find some folks in states like Michigan who are jealous of the UAW hefty contracts who are crying crocodile tears.

Insider (Ret) · Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject:

One of my dearest in-laws is a mid 80s (age and golf score) GM retiree. We play golf together when we're out at our cottage if he's not in the hospital, and if not, then he'll have his oxygen tank with him on the back of the golf cart. He's one of my many heroes and I know that he's constantly having to "jimmy" his health care coverage as GM makes cuts in their "legacy costs" (a wonderful euphemism, eh?). I'd be very upset if he was hurt further if/when GM fails and/or goes under Chapter 11. It's folks like Stew who make all of this very real.

David Traver · Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:59 am Post subject:

If indeed there were no difference between those who need a safety net and those who must file bankruptcy, the Republicans would not have burdened the American families in 2005 with a draconian bankruptcy law written by the credit card industry.

There is no consistency in the Republican / conservative ideology. They make it up as they go along to fit the situation. The surprising thing is that some people actually believe it to be real. By now one would think they would catch on to the trick.

"Joe the Autoworker," we want you unemployed, bankrupt and homeless. -GOP

Olan Barnes · Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 1648 Location: Michigan

IMHO we need Joe the auto worker and the air plane maker and the submarine maker and the toy maker.

When I was a kid almost allo my circle of relations made something however I retired from a service industry - my wife was a RN my daughter in law is a CPA my son a software engineer my daughter a teacher and my son in law an information technology specialist at a power company. We can not be just a service nation and buy products from others and/or have the treasury departments and headquarters of corporations at nations overseas.

I show my bias I know and I admit to it. The nation has not changed from it's founding - there is still a big state Vs little state - rust belt Vs everybody else and white collar Vs blue collar.and it showed when congress debated the banking bail out and no Dems or GOP asked the banking leaders what transportation they took to DC or if they would work for a dolior a year.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081225/OPINION03/812250377

My Christmas wish is not peace on earth - just peace in the USA.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/gallery?Site=C4&Date=20080714&Category=NEWS&ArtNo=807140805&Ref=PH&Params=Itemnr=1

David Traver · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:05 am Post subject:

On the other hand . . .

Olan Barnes · Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 1648 Location: Michigan

Got to have a sense of humor - I forwarded the image around. Now what do you drive to pull a horse trailer?

Actually Ford is not getting money -- YET.

David Traver · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:59 am Post subject:

Something like this?

Link

Olan Barnes · Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 1648 Location: Michigan

Good news for Ford:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090125/bs_nm/us_ford_mulally

Of course I drive a Saturn. :lol: