Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 01:55 pm Post subject: All-out middle east war begins.
Quote:
Israel is now in "all-out war" with Hamas, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak told parliament today. "We have nothing against the people of Gaza," Barak said as Israeli warplanes carried out a third day of strikes on the Palestinian territory. "But this is an all-out war against Hamas and its branches."
CNN.com - Breaking News, U.S., World, Weather, Entertainment & Video News, at http://www.cnn.com/ (last visited Dec. 29, 2008).
See also from January 2006:
Quote:
The radical Islamic movement Hamas won a large majority in the new Palestinian parliament, according to official election results announced Thursday, trouncing the governing Fatah party in a contest that could dramatically reshape the Palestinians' relations with Israel and the rest of the world.
After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.
Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei issued a religious decree to Muslims around the world on Sunday, ordering them to defend Palestinians against Israel's attacks on Gaza, state television said. "All Palestinian combatants and all the Islamic world's pious people are obliged to defend the defenseless women, children and people in Gaza in any way possible. Whoever is killed in this legitimate defense is considered a martyr," state television quoted Khamenei as saying in a statement outlining the fatwa.
Which may give President Bush his desired all-out war with Iran before January 20, 2009. The players have never learned that those going into a war cannot predict with any reasonable certainty who will win the war, how much it will cost, how long it will last, and how many lives will be lost. Wars that were supposed to last only six weeks or less include the First World War, the Second World War, The Second World War after the attack on Pearl Harbor (from the Japanese point of view), the Lebanon war, and the current Iraqi occupation.
Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 1641 Location: Michigan
Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 06:21 pm Post subject:
"WASHINGTON — When President-elect Barack Obama went to Israel in July — to the very town, in fact, whose repeated shelling culminated in this weekend’s new fighting in Gaza — he all but endorsed the punishing Israeli attacks now unfolding.
“If somebody was sending rockets into my house, where my two daughters sleep at night, I’m going to do everything in my power to stop that,” he told reporters in Sderot, a small city on the edge of Gaza that has been hit repeatedly by rocket fire. “And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.” "
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"By the time he arrived in Israel in July, he suggested he would not even consider talks without a fundamental shift in Hamas and its behavior, effectively moving his policy much closer to President Bush’s. “In terms of negotiations with Hamas, it is very hard to negotiate with a group that is not representative of a nation-state, does not recognize your right to exist, has consistently used terror as a weapon, and is deeply influenced by other countries,” he said then. "
Senator Obama has never endorsed the United States' double standard regarding disproportionate military force. When the Russians used disproportionate military force in its attacks against Georgia, the United States denounced it. When Israel uses disproportionate force against Muslim areas, it is approved.
The difference is solely based upon who is using the disproportionate force. It is a difference without a legal distinction.
"The Illinois senator called for the U.S. and Europe to strengthen their relationship with Georgia, “Going forward, the United States and Europe must support the people of Georgia. Beyond immediate humanitarian assistance, we must provide economic assistance, and help rebuild what has been destroyed. I have consistently called for deepening relations between Georgia and transatlantic institutions, including a Membership Action Plan for NATO, and we must continue to press for that deeper relationship.” "
Russia maintained that Georgia engaged in acts of terrorism regarding its nationals in a disputed area. Israel maintains the same. There is no doubt that a nation has a right to defend its citizens, and that firing missiles into civilian areas is always disproportionate and a crime against humanity. I see no reason to believe that the Israeli disproportionate response is not a violation of the same international law. There is also no doubt that the use of disproportionate military response was denounced by the U.S. when Russia was the perpetrator. There is a lack of consistency here which is the hallmark of the Bush doctrine.
I'm a little surprised, Olan, to hear that you believe that using disproportionate military force against a captive civilian population will make Israel safer. It never has before, why would it now? Quite the opposite. It intentionally throws gasoline on the Middle East fire.
Of course, this all appears to be a red herring. I strongly suspect that this is prelude to a strike against Iran, which is the Golden Fleece of the final days of the Bush legacy. Such a strike would have disastrous results. Lest you think that the USA is not involved in the actions of Israel in this endeavor, you may wish to do a little research into to the source of the "precision" ordinance being used today by Israel in Gaza.
8) David, is it your solution to just let Israel fade from existence? They pulled out of Gaza, but Hamas took over and you see what has happened. They won't let up. But, I think I see what the problem is, it is all Bush's fault. When he is gone, wonder who's going to be blamed.
No, my solution is to apply some intelligence and prolonged diplomatic genius to the situation because arms do not work. Is your solution to see the Palestinians fade into nonexistence?
Neither alternative is acceptable and neither can be achieved. Thus, there is no peace and no safety for either side.
Northern Ireland was in such an intractable predicament for nearly a hundred years. They found peace by taking a new path. So can the parties to this conflict. That is, they can do so if there is anything left of Israel and the Middle East on January 19th.
War has not brought peace to the Middle East. At the current rate, if they do not annihilate each themselves first, we should reasonably expect that a pro-war strategy will lead to unresolved conflict for more than a century. They already have 60 years of strife to show for the effort.
Since President Bush has done nothing to solve the existing problem is it his fault? No, if is your fault for voting for Bush. Sorry.
Albert Einstein said it best "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." I am sincerely concerned for the lives and futures of everybody involved. We too are not immune from what appears to be on the horizon.
8) Israel has fought for everything they have gained, against overwhelming odds. Under pressure, they have given up a lot of those gains. Now all the whimpy nations want them to just throw up their arms and say "I give." They ain't gone do that. You talk about Bush, he wanted them out of Gaza, and he worked on the peace plan. Israel left, they had elections, Hamas won, and does not want peace, as we have seen. Now they are reaping the whirlwind. So who are you for?
Today I read that people in Gaza are starving, and they are feeding GRASS to the children. I no longer care who started it, or who is at fault. If this is true, I object to my tax dollars going to support the starvation of the people of Gaza. It's morally wrong, and probably illegal too.
I have grown up in the shadow of this conflict - this is my maternal grandmother born in the late 19th century:
Matilda Koury
Bteddine El Lockech Lebanon
Born 25 Dec 1884
Died 09 Jul 1966
I lived with her from 1947 (birth) till 1950 and from 1957 (date my father died) till 1960. I loved her dearly however it was no doubt that there was a bias against two groups - Hoover Republications and the Jewish state. I could never understand t;h;is bias but there was a language problem with many of my first generations relations so I did not have to worry about political discussions. My view then (as a teen) and to this day was that via the UN they were there (the Jewish state) and they had a right to exist and defend themselves by whatever way possible because just by numbers alone they were just a sliver of a country they could be over run in a heart beat. I grew up in a era of assimilation and I prey for peace in the middle east for Jews and Arabs as the holocaust can not be repeated in my childrens generation. OK so my Mother was born in Michigan City Indiana and I was born in Flint Michigan however I can still remember letters from the old country (and waiting for someone to come over to translate it) and calling my grandmother Sitto - it is a small world and we should live in peace with one another and not wish for another country to be a "corpse".
8) I am very partial to the Jews. I was born and raised in the Delta area of Mississippi. There was a large Jewish population back when I was growing up, and were some of the finest people you would want to meet. They were elected as mayors, alderman, and many other public positions at the county and state level. The Delta part of Mississippi was a different world. I am very closely associated with the Jews. Back during my college years, some of my best running buddies were Jews, and they are in my family. My daddy's brother married Rosebud Reed, whose mother was a Jew. Her family name was Kamien, and they had three children, who are quarter Jew, and my first cousins. We are very close. Back during the depression, there were two businessmen in Ruleville, MS who kept my family afloat. That was Mr. Louie Silverblatt, who ran a grocery store and saw to it that my family had food. Then, there was Mr. Hyman Turner who had a dry goods store who made sure that we were clothed. After my family got back on their feet, they saw to it that every penny was paid back. They never traded with anybody else after that., and you never disparaged Jews around my grandfather and daddy. I could name off may many more here, Mr. Benny Sklar in Ruleville, The lLevingston's who were planters, and Lawyers and Mr. Ted Borodofsky, a banker. Wonderful people, and very much a part of the area.
I believe in separation of church and state. That is, religion should not be a consideration in foreign affairs.
If the Israelis are entitled to special political deference because of the holocaust, then too, should the American Indians get special deference, as should the decedents of African slaves. Similarly, since gypsies and gays were rounded up and exterminated at Nazi death camps, we should give special political rights to them as well. So it is with the victims and survivors of Darfur, the victims of Pol Pot, and the Chinse victims of the Japanese occupation of China, the victims of Stalin, and so on. The Israelis do not have a special franchise on genocide survival.
Let's step past the "anti-Semitic" argument and see it for what it is. Let's start having a realistic and balanced policy towards the Middle East that treats all of the people in the region as if they were are brothers and sisters, with equal rights. Then we will begin to have a Middle East policy that is consistent with our Constitution.
I've been called an "anti-Semite" for my oppossal to necons, including the Project for the New American Century. I've been called an "anti-Semite" for asking out loud here why it is in the national interest of the United States to give disproportionate support to Israel over Palestinians, when they are both semites.
Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 1641 Location: Michigan
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:41 pm Post subject:
Yep - when one side does not feel the other is a rotting corpse - not sure how this fits in the :United States Constitution - what article are you referring to as it pertains to the Middle East and international relations? I am not even sure how the middle east fits into the mix - there is peace between Egypt and the democratic Jewish state for many years as they are able to live in peace - I wonder how that is? A rhetorical question.
It was less rhetorical when somebody on Connect asked me why I hate Jews when I raised this issue before. It was less rhetorical when an attorney on a list serve called me an anti-Semite for opposing the Necons before the Iraqi war.
8) Well I think we know where you stand David. Stand there and be proud. It really amazes me that you and others can take a position on one subject and be so obtuse on another.
8)David, I think we know where you stand, you are not on the side of the Jews. I want you to know, I stand with them and hope they win. One thing you can say about them, win or lose, they are going to hang in there, and fight it out.
I am not on either side. I am an American, not an Israeli or a Palestinian.
You hope they win what? What would winning look like? Your final comment, that they are going to hang in there and fight it out is exactly the same thing the Palestinians are saying about their side. It is a lie that does not work. It has not worked in 60 years. It is the same nonsense the Protestants and Catholics said in Northern Ireland for a hundred years until they finally saw the lie of it. War does not work. How hard is that to understand? _________________ David Traver
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Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 1641 Location: Michigan
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 02:01 am Post subject:
Dave - my friend we will just agree not to agree on this issue.
I want peace but you can not bargain with a entity where the only outcome is your utter decay.
And yes they have stood down only to have their democracy bombed by suicide bombers and aimless rockets - you can not live seconds away from a safe place forever. Yes I know they want to live in peace and the proof of that is you see no attacks in Egypt.
One problem for both of us is that we have too little data. A month or two living in Gaza and then the settlements would help focus our arguments. A month or two of them living here would help focus theirs, I suppose.
Another problem is that Americans have been brainwashed into thinking that there are only two alternatives, war or capitulation. That's plain silly thinking. Peace is not capitulation. Peace is harder than war, it takes more courage than war, it takes more intelligence and wisdom than war, it takes greater commitment and honesty than war, and unlike war, it works.
Take a look at the hundreds and hundreds of years of war in Europe, and look at it now. There are hardly any borders at all, the monetary system is unified and their military industrial complexes are under control and not devouring the economies. A whole generation has grown up in peace. Look at Costa Rica, which fired its army in 1949. There too an entire generation has grown up in peace, opting out of the cold war and the silly local wars that destroy its neighbors and plunge them into abject poverty and insecurity. War is a parasitic virus, a moral vice to be cured, not something to be nurtured as if it were a useful tool.
What do you call starving an entire community? Do you call it something other than utter decay?
Do you call it genocide or what?
Olan Barnes wrote:
Dave - my friend we will just agree not to agree on this issue.
I want peace but you can not bargain with a entity where the only outcome is your utter decay.
And yes they have stood down only to have their democracy bombed by suicide bombers and aimless rockets - you can not live seconds away from a safe place forever. Yes I know they want to live in peace and the proof of that is you see no attacks in Egypt.
:( I don't think anyone likes what is going on in Gaza at the moment. Like Olan, I have been close to Jew all my life. As I have said here before, I was born and raised in the Delta area of Mississippi. There was a large population of Jews back then, engaged in many occupations. They served as mayors, alderman, and in many other capacities as elected public servants, local, county and state. They were loved and respected in my area. During the depression, Mr. Louie Silverblatt, whose family ran a grocery store, and Mr. Hyman Turner who had a dry goods store in Ruleville, Mississippi, kept my family fed and clothed on credit, with no assurance of repayment. My family paid back every cent, and you didn't disparage Jews around my father and grandfather. My Daddy's Brother married a Half-Jew, Rosebud Reed. Her mother was a Kamien, and Jewish, so my beloved aunt Rosebud was half-jewish. They had three children, two boys and a girl, all of whom are my first cousins, and we are very close. So you can see why I love Jews and Israel. Just look at what they have done, the wars they have won over overwhelming odds. Now they are being attacked by Hamas, and attacked for fighting back. If the Palestinians really wanted peace, they could have it. They don't want it.
My brother in law is Jewish, and I love him. So what does that have to do with the issue? I know no Palestinians, but I know enough of the world to treat them and the people of Israel as God's children, as should we all. We are all created equal.
If the Israelis wanted peace they could have it too. The American press is heavily biased in favor of Israel and the Israeli lobbying efforts in the United States vastly outweigh those of the Palestinians. This has a significant impact upon our relationship with the region.
If we start looking at this problem as if we were Americans and not partisans we would, for one thing, stop the heavy funding the Israeli military industrial complex. That would go a long way to bringing peace to the region. Pumping arms into a volatile region has never brought peace and justice, as is demonstrated by the disastrous results in developing countries throughout the world during the Cold War.
As it is, both the Israelis and Palestinians are writhing on a cross of iron, which we provided and regularly upgrade.
I don't forget about how others look at things. I'm just saddened and disappointed by the utter lack of imagination, thoughtfulness, and compassion of those who believe in war and endlessly feed the military industrial complex with our fortune, the lives of soldiers, and the lives of innocent civilians. I see that they do it because they are afraid. I believe that they are wrong, lazy, and ignorant to trust in the old vice of militarism. There is a better way, but it is not profitable to the huge international lobbies that promote, build, and sell weapons. Unlike you, I won't give up on this. I have little children who deserve to live in a world at peace.
Happily, we elected President Obama. He has small children. I hope that he understands that war does not work to keep them safe.
Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 1641 Location: Michigan
Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 02:15 pm Post subject:
I do not see this as a Democrat and Republication issue in particular when you consider the Chief of Staff kfor Obama and his Secretary of State.
"Barak also cited a comment made by U.S. President-elect Barack Obama, who visited Sderot during his election campaign earlier this year.
"Obama said that if rockets were being fired at his home while his two daughters were sleeping, he would do everything he could to prevent it," Barack told the plenum.
The defense minister went on to say that Israel is engaged in a "war to the bitter end" against Hamas in Gaza."
Also his words of one President at a time except when it comes to Israel but not the economy.
Oh ya and I do have three grandchildren and a birthday party for one of them last Saturday and I think food poisoning from the event or immediately after - what we do for our children and grandson.
Also I am not going to say much more on this and be glad our kids are out of harms way as we agree it is very sad. I have seen in my own life what hate can do and how fragile life is.
One statement from David cannot go unchallanged. He states that Israel could have peace if it wanted. Unfortunately this simply isn't correct. Since 1948 Israel has sought peace with its neighbors. After years of war most of these neighbors have accepted Israel right to exist. Hamas ,an surrugate for Iran has not. Irt continues to shell Israel.
We can question tactics and whether or not Isreal present offensive will lead to peace. What cannot be questioned is the desire of Hamas and others in the region to see Israel wiped off the face the earth.
Of course you must be aware that Israel took over Palestine by force, which included terrorism (if, for example, you consider the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946 to be a terrorist act). This is the pattern used by the European immigrants of the United States in the invasion, subjugation, and settlement of Indian homelands.
That resulted in a hundred years or so of "Indian wars" in which forced marches, genocide, and even biological warfare were used against the rightful owners of the land, who happened to be the Indians. Few of the Indians remain and most tribes are long forgotten and extinct. Those that do remain are having a bad go of it. Yet, they remember with considerable pride the great Chiefs who had the courage to fight back against overwhelming odds they faced. Of course, the American European immigrants considered those freedom fighters to be terrorists.
This usurpation of land by military force is an old European trick that had been used to victimize the Jews in Europe. (See e.g. Spain in 1492.) This age-old trick also resulted in the wars between Spain and England, England and France, Germany and everybody, Napoleon versus everybody, Russia versus everybody. It did not bring peace for centuries and centuries. Peace finally came when nuclear war was clearly the upper limit of militarism and a consensus was reached that the cycle could not continue. Then, alternative forms of peace were found, including the EU. For more insight into the back story of the military industrial complex as a mechanism for endless war, read the Arms of Krupp.
Canada did things differently. They purchased rights to the land from the owners of the land via the trading companies. Canada did not experience our 18th and 19th century Indian wars. Canada tried a different way. It happened to work pretty well.
Israel is using the European/American model, which is to take desired land by force. It will eventually lead to peace in about 50 years when all of the Palestinians are dead or too feeble to respond. We have the American Indians to use as a predictive model for the outcome. The Palestinians are not staying on the reservations, they do not seem to behave, they fight. History shows they will generally be annihilated. On the other hand, in this nuclear age, we may wake up (perhaps tomorrow) to find that the Middle East, including Israel, no longer exist. Instead, their remains will orbit the upper atmosphere as a radioactive cloud.
You say that war has not worked since 1948. I agree. What in the world makes you think that it will work now? Yes, Israel can have peace whenever it wants it, but first it has to give up its silly and unfounded belief in the golden calf of militarism. That's not because Israel is bad. It's because war does not work.
By the way, have some fun and take the American foreign aid for Middle East for the last decade and divide by the number of Palestinians. At that rate we could have paid for all of the land, and homes, and farms, and businesses that Israel took by force since 1948. The Palestinians could have all moved to Manhattan, San Fransisco, Paris, and London, and lived in luxury lofts. Hell, they could have bought Alaska. The problem with that approach is that it would not generate profit for the military industrial complex. http://tinyurl.com/9nh3vt The very last thing that the Military Industrial Complex wants is peace. It is the ultimate disaster for a producer of military hardware and advanced weapons systems, such as those being used in Gaza tonight.
8) You know what David, you are a great historian, really, and what you have shown us all is, that over the ages it has been us against them, and it all depended on how all of us took care of them. That's the way it is now.I think we all know who them is.
8) You know what David, you are a great historian, really, and what you have shown us all is, that over the ages it has been us against them, and it all depended on how all of us took care of them. That's the way it is now.I think we all know who them is.
Amid cries of "Jews and Arabs refuse to be enemies!" and banners reading, "Enough!" thousands of Israelis took to the streets of Tel Aviv on Saturday night to protest against the country's war on Gaza.
Protesters called for an immediate end to the Israeli attacks, in which more than 450 Palestinians have been killed and around 2,100 injured since air assaults on Gaza began last Saturday.
Organizers, a coalition of groups such as Gush Shalom, the Hadash party and the Coalition of Women for Peace, were encouraged by the turnout.
"We have experience from the last war, in Lebanon, and this time the public outcry is much quicker and much bigger," said veteran Gush Shalom campaigner Uri Avnery.
"It is a cynical war, for political reasons and people are very much aware of that."
Palestinian-Israelis who demonstrated alongside Jewish co-nationalists waved the Palestinian flag, as police attempt to ban such a practice before the protest was overruled by the Israeli high court.
Earlier on Saturday, about 10,000 demonstrators, predominantly Palestinian-Israelis, protested in the northern Galilee village of Sakhnin.
Many of the demonstrators expressed a desire show another side of the Israeli equation amid overwhelming public support for the current attacks.
"There are people who think differently," said 24-year-old Iya Michlin, from Tel Aviv.
"It is important that the world, and especially the Arab world, sees that."
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